Re: One BIG woman.

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Posted by Wildbill (pcp721768pcs.alxndr01.va.comcast.net | 68.49.205.138) on October 11, 2002 at 18:14:39:

In Reply to: Re: One BIG woman. posted by Gideon Zhi on October 11, 2002 at 12:02:59:

> > >

> > > Coming soon: Shin Nekketsu Kouha - Kunio-tachi no Banka!
> > >
> > > ...assuming I can find the weird-ass miscellaneous lower-case text, which I'm sure I'll be able to do fairly soon. And remember folks, Hell hath no fury like Misuzu scorned!
> >
> > Nice work.
> >
> > BTW, you need a comma after "Hey".
>
> The comma would kind-of interrupt the flow of the line, especially since... well... hear it for yourself ^_^ The comma implies a pause between the words, and the spacing between "hey you" and "you guuuuuuuuuys" is fairly uniform.

I must respectfully disagree. Although a comma "may" deliniate a pause in speech when such usage is embedded in dialogue, in this case, a comma is prescribed by a basic rule of grammar (separation of salutation and nominative).

This is not intended as a direct insult to you personally, GZ, but generally, I attribute this sort of "winging it by uninformed logic" (or a willfull ignoring of the rules of grammar), as what separates amateur and professional writers.

What I've told my students over the years (I'm not teaching currently) is that the written English language and a commonly spoken dialect are two different animals, that the omission of proper punctuation (in order to convey one possible assumption of dialogue flow) will lower their letter grades on written assignments.

Perhaps this is confusing, but the opposite approach is usually allowed. Under a "liberal comma rule", writers may insert extra commas in order to force reader pauses, using this as a tool to craft a desired effect. Teachers are uncomfortable, however, when commas become excessive, even though defining excessive comma use is subjective. But a skilled writer soon learns how to solve dialogue flow problems. One way is to break compound sentences into shorter vehicles having greater impact.

But I am speaking of advanced writing techniques, not basics. By and large, higher standards of excellence have been ignored in public education since the mid 1980s. I know, because I have tried to overcome deficiences in my own kids' public school educations, caused by time wasted on social engineering, disciplinary distractions, and marginally competent teachers.

This is especially true in English. Why, I have talked to college freshmen this very fall who have no inkling what I mean when I suggest they learn to use proper pronoun cases, kids who have never even diagrammed a sentence! Sadly, we seem to have a whole generation of young people who are deficient in the communications skills of their own language.

Nevertheless, if someone believes that proper grammar is neither important nor desired, or that grammatical rules may be redefined in a vacuum by personal preference or whim, then there's no reason to read on. But like I've always told my students (and my own kids), there's no substitute for two things in this cruel, cold, unforgiving world. One is "good taste". The other is "doing something the right way".

I have noticed recently that some professionally ported video games are quite sloppy in their English constructions. I attribute this to companies retaining the services of hack writers. In the end, I feel these avaricious moguls "get what they pay for" (to end this sentence improperly, with a preposition).

The only TANGIBLE counter-argument I can offer is to get hold of a recent DVD movie, one containing English subtitles (as some Hollywood studios still employ competent writers). While viewing said movie, listen for instances of dramatic dialogue in which no hesitations are detected, but keep tabs on the subtitles. I believe you will see commas used where educated writers have respected the formal rules of grammar, even while the actors seem to be spitting out their lines hysterically... without a noticeable pause.

Indeed, I submit once more that the different in a professional writer and a hack is (in addition to mastering construction techniques) a fastidious respect for the formal rules of grammar. I would go even futher and suggest that it also separates cultured people from other (less cultured) beings.

I usually get in trouble with my own kids whenever I say things like this. They get all huffy and claim I'm accusing them of being uncultured or whatever. They stomp off, then six months later they bring up the subject again, saying that in their jobs or schools they've now seen examples of how polished people seem to get ahead, while those who cling stubbornly to preconceived notions or vulgar manners are treated like "dumb-shits". -Sigh- I guess there's no substitute for growing up beside growing up....

Nevertheless, many of us are indeed educated (if not yet cultured), or well on our way to attaining this status. Therefore, rather than "dumb down" our art form, in consonence with all of the garbage floating around in today's insipid pop culture, I urge that we promote the highest standards. I feel that it only makes sense, to give people the opportunity to elevate themselves through exposure to our products, rather than making them convenient to mental slovens by aiming our works at the lowest common denominators.

Speaking of which, a cultured approach entails more than just good grammar, punctuation, and writing. Although none of what I'm about to say has anything to do with grammar and punctuation, it involves a subject that's been on my mind lately, that is, the use of profanity in dialogue.

Point is, anyone can use the "f" word to convey an idea of the physical act of sex, that is, copulation without any sense of love, purpose, or motivation beyond a basic animal instinct. But using the "f" word to describe this (or something similar, like using the "s" word for defecation, etc.) is the lazy man's approach.

It takes effort (and the development of at least a few writing skills including subtlety) to convey the intrinsic idea of the "f" word in a given scene, if indeed that form of sexual intercourse took place, either actually or within in the hand-wringing dreams of some poor, horny bastard. But constructing the theme cleverly can make a big difference in whether the reader is entertained or irritated.

With the possible exception of the type of people who are attracted to primetime network TV (NBC, CBS, and ABC) I contend that very few RPG players are enthralled by the simple-minded mutterings of some common everyday idiot who is stumbling around the countryside with his trash mouth running in full gear.

I don't know how I got diverted to this, so I'll wrap things up. But the next video game I turn on - I don't care if it's a commercial game or a fan translation - I'm going to switch it off and sail the disk out the window as soon as I spot the first "f" word!

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> > > > <center><img src="http://agtp.romhack.net/tnb.png"> > > > > Coming soon: Shin Nekketsu Kouha - Kunio-tachi no Banka!</center> > > > > > > > > ...assuming I can find the weird-ass miscellaneous lower-case text, which I'm sure I'll be able to do fairly soon. And remember folks, Hell hath no fury like Misuzu scorned! > > > > > > Nice work. > > > > > > BTW, you need a comma after "Hey". > > > > The comma would kind-of interrupt the flow of the line, especially since... well... <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/goonies695/media/sloth.wav">hear it for yourself ^_^</a> The comma implies a pause between the words, and the spacing between "hey you" and "you guuuuuuuuuys" is fairly uniform. > > I must respectfully disagree. Although a comma "may" deliniate a pause in speech when such usage is embedded in dialogue, in this case, a comma is prescribed by a basic rule of grammar (separation of salutation and nominative). > > This is not intended as a direct insult to you personally, GZ, but generally, I attribute this sort of "winging it by uninformed logic" (or a willfull ignoring of the rules of grammar), as what separates amateur and professional writers. > > What I've told my students over the years (I'm not teaching currently) is that the written English language and a commonly spoken dialect are two different animals, that the omission of proper punctuation (in order to convey one possible assumption of dialogue flow) will lower their letter grades on written assignments. > > Perhaps this is confusing, but the opposite approach is usually allowed. Under a "liberal comma rule", writers may insert extra commas in order to force reader pauses, using this as a tool to craft a desired effect. Teachers are uncomfortable, however, when commas become excessive, even though defining excessive comma use is subjective. But a skilled writer soon learns how to solve dialogue flow problems. One way is to break compound sentences into shorter vehicles having greater impact. > > But I am speaking of advanced writing techniques, not basics. By and large, higher standards of excellence have been ignored in public education since the mid 1980s. I know, because I have tried to overcome deficiences in my own kids' public school educations, caused by time wasted on social engineering, disciplinary distractions, and marginally competent teachers. > > This is especially true in English. Why, I have talked to college freshmen this very fall who have no inkling what I mean when I suggest they learn to use proper pronoun cases, kids who have never even diagrammed a sentence! Sadly, we seem to have a whole generation of young people who are deficient in the communications skills of their own language. > > Nevertheless, if someone believes that proper grammar is neither important nor desired, or that grammatical rules may be redefined in a vacuum by personal preference or whim, then there's no reason to read on. But like I've always told my students (and my own kids), there's no substitute for two things in this cruel, cold, unforgiving world. One is "good taste". The other is "doing something the right way". > > I have noticed recently that some professionally ported video games are quite sloppy in their English constructions. I attribute this to companies retaining the services of hack writers. In the end, I feel these avaricious moguls "get what they pay for" (to end this sentence improperly, with a preposition). > > The only TANGIBLE counter-argument I can offer is to get hold of a recent DVD movie, one containing English subtitles (as some Hollywood studios still employ competent writers). While viewing said movie, listen for instances of dramatic dialogue in which no hesitations are detected, but keep tabs on the subtitles. I believe you will see commas used where educated writers have respected the formal rules of grammar, even while the actors seem to be spitting out their lines hysterically... without a noticeable pause. > > Indeed, I submit once more that the different in a professional writer and a hack is (in addition to mastering construction techniques) a fastidious respect for the formal rules of grammar. I would go even futher and suggest that it also separates cultured people from other (less cultured) beings. > > I usually get in trouble with my own kids whenever I say things like this. They get all huffy and claim I'm accusing them of being uncultured or whatever. They stomp off, then six months later they bring up the subject again, saying that in their jobs or schools they've now seen examples of how polished people seem to get ahead, while those who cling stubbornly to preconceived notions or vulgar manners are treated like "dumb-shits". -Sigh- I guess there's no substitute for growing up beside growing up.... > > Nevertheless, many of us are indeed educated (if not yet cultured), or well on our way to attaining this status. Therefore, rather than "dumb down" our art form, in consonence with all of the garbage floating around in today's insipid pop culture, I urge that we promote the highest standards. I feel that it only makes sense, to give people the opportunity to elevate themselves through exposure to our products, rather than making them convenient to mental slovens by aiming our works at the lowest common denominators. > > Speaking of which, a cultured approach entails more than just good grammar, punctuation, and writing. Although none of what I'm about to say has anything to do with grammar and punctuation, it involves a subject that's been on my mind lately, that is, the use of profanity in dialogue. > > Point is, anyone can use the "f" word to convey an idea of the physical act of sex, that is, copulation without any sense of love, purpose, or motivation beyond a basic animal instinct. But using the "f" word to describe this (or something similar, like using the "s" word for defecation, etc.) is the lazy man's approach. > > It takes effort (and the development of at least a few writing skills including subtlety) to convey the intrinsic idea of the "f" word in a given scene, if indeed that form of sexual intercourse took place, either actually or within in the hand-wringing dreams of some poor, horny bastard. But constructing the theme cleverly can make a big difference in whether the reader is entertained or irritated. > > With the possible exception of the type of people who are attracted to primetime network TV (NBC, CBS, and ABC) I contend that very few RPG players are enthralled by the simple-minded mutterings of some common everyday idiot who is stumbling around the countryside with his trash mouth running in full gear. > > I don't know how I got diverted to this, so I'll wrap things up. But the next video game I turn on - I don't care if it's a commercial game or a fan translation - I'm going to switch it off and sail the disk out the window as soon as I spot the first "f" word!

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